Beginner - Introducing people

"Wael" is a pre-Islamic name meaning "rescuer" or "protector"

The double imperative at the beginning of the Arabic text calls for a few remarks:

First, the most natural English equivalent would be "Come on!"

Second, a literal translation ("Come come") will give rise to misunderstandings. "Come come" can have two functions. It is often used to tell someone not to be upset or nervous, but it can also be employed in a situation where you want to tell someone that you do not accept or believe what they have just said.

Third, "come come" has direct equivalents in other languages. In French, for instance, you can say "Allons!" or "Voyons!", and in German you can say "Mensch, komm! Sei doch vernünftig!" or "Jetzt komm! Sei doch vernünftig!" What do you say in Arabic?

English and Arabic conventions are very different. If Wael had been speaking English he would have said "Pleased to meet you", and his interlocutor would have replied "I'm pleased to meet you too."

In this podcast Ehab and Mohamed briefly discuss some of the problems posed by homographs and draw attention to the importance of the “shadda”. This has reminded me of a question I was intending to ask about the word ﺠﺪ, which is employed as an adverb (= really) in the podcast entitled “Sorry for being late”. The lexical item in question looks very like ﺠﺪّ, which can mean “grandfather”, “assiduity” or “earnestness”. Could ﺠﺪ have been written with a shadda in “Sorry for being late”?

In a previous lesson Ehab said that "fursa sa'iida" could be used at the end of a conversation when two people who have met each other for the first time are about to part. Can the conversation be continued if "fursa sa'iida" is followed by "ana l-as'ad"?

Ahlan Desmond,

Usually if the conversation ended with “Fur9a Sa3eedah” and “Ana As3ad” then that would be the end of it. With regards to جِد as in Jed (serious) and جَد as in jad (grandfather), they are spelt the same but have different vowels and a shaddah can’t be added to the last letter.

Actually (to state something in an area of which I actually know) Desmond, "Come, come" is commonly used in the U.S. just as stated here, to say in a friendly, colloquial way, "come over here." "Now, now" is more commonly used as you describe. Thanks for venturing your perspective! Charles

Dear Mohamed,

Thank you for the extra information. The polite formula “fursa (ﻓﺭﺻﺔ) sa’iida (ﺴﻌﻴﺪﺓ)” will evidently be very useful in a situation where two people wish to part because they are in a hurry or because they are not particularly interested in each other. But what do people say if, after being introduced to each other, they want to sit down and get to know each other better? There must be some transitional expression which can be used to indicate that one of the speakers does not want to end the conversation.

I’ve been checking various sources of information about ﺠﺪ. Here is what I’ve found so far:

1) If there is a kasra beneath the first letter and a shadda above the second it means "assiduity".

2) If there is a fatha above the first letter and a shadda above the second it can mean "grandfather" or "earnestness".

Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find any additional information about the adverb used in the podcast entitled "Sorry for being late". You say there is no shadda above the second letter. What about the first one? Is there is kasra beneath the initial letter?

Dear Charles,

Thank you for your interesting comment on “Come. come”. Several points need to be made here:

First, “now, now” is also used in British English. It is synonymous with “now then” and expresses mild disapproval. In this case there appears to be no difference between British and American usage.

Second, the double imperative “Come, come” has a long and complex history. We have to draw a distinction between “come” as a verb of movement and “come” as a constituent of an idiom which can be used to express slight disapproval or to admonish someone to be reasonable.

Third, you say that “come” can be used as a verb of movement in “Come, come” in everyday spoken American English. In contemporary British English this would sound odd. Shakespeare uses “Come, come” in this sense in “Antony and Cleopatra” (Act 4, Scene 15), and a similar example can be found in B. Stoker’s “Dracula”: “Come, sister. Come to us. Come! Come!” (p. 472 in Maurice Hindle’s Penguin edition). This is the scene where three vampires materialise in the whirling snow and try to ensnare Mina. As in “Antony and Cleopatra”, the language is archaic and literary.

In nineteenth-century American English “Come, come” was used idiomatically to express mild disapproval. There is a good example in “Doctor Heiddeger’s Experiment”, a narrative text published by N. Hawthorne in 1837: “Come, come, gentlemen! come, Madam Wycherly,” exclaimed the doctor, I really must protest against this riot.” Charles Dickens uses “Come, come” in exactly the same way in the first chapter of “David Copperfield”.

If we wanted to translate “Dracula” into Arabic, we could use ﺘﻌﺎﻝ. But what could we do with the passage I’ve just quoted from “Doctor Heiddeger’s Experiment”?

Mina is a woman, so if the Stoker’s vampires wanted to speak correct Arabic they would have to add a feminine ending to the imperative and say ﺘﻌﺎﻠﻲ.

The article before "Stoker's" should be deleted. That's a typo.

Very stimulating stuff, Desmond. I still think "come, come" as a verb of movement is rather deeply embedded in American English usage. E.g., the 19th Century Mormon song commonly heard - Come Come Ye Saints -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come,_Come,_Ye_Saints. This is not to say the other meanings you mention (disapproval and admonishment) are not also common; in fact, I am quite sure they are. One would need to refer to the context to understand the meaning. -- Charles

For a very current form of usage of "come, come" as a verb of movement try http://blogs.citypages.com/gimmenoise/2010/09/culture_cry_wol_1.php

Thanks for the feedback, Charles. It's amazing how much one can discover when one studies language under the microscope. I've already observed lots of interesting phenomena in the podcasts - things that nobody has ever mentioned so far.

If معلّمة is teacher (f); how about مضر سة? Not certain I spelled that correctly...mudarrisa. Perhaps I'll improve with time.

That’s an easy question, Mario. ﻤﺪﺮﺱ is a male teacher. ﻤﺪﺮﺴﺔ is a female teacher.

Hi Mario, a former teacher of mine (Iraqi) always told us that معلمة/معلم is an elementary school teacher and مدرسة / مدرس a secondary school teacher. I have heard, however, that in northern Africa it is exactly the other way around! Perhaps our AP teachers can shed some light on the issue?

That’s a really interesting point, Karen. The article “instituteur” (primary school teacher) in the French version of Wikipedia is linked to the article ﻤﺪﺮﺱ in the Arabic version. This conveys the impression that the people who are responsible for the Arabic version consider these two terms to be equivalent. “Instituteur”, unfortunately, is linked to “teacher” in the English version, and “teacher” is an extremely vague word.

Thank you, Desmond. That appears to coincide with what I heard from a Tunisian lady I took lessons with for a while.

Incidentally, here is an interesting article on why Arabic is so difficult for us to learn to read. You've probably already come across it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11181457

Thanks for the useful reference, Karen. I’ve just checked a book by Haroon Shirwani (“Build your Arabic Vocabulary”). On p. 92 ﻤﺪﺮﺱ and ﻤﻌﻠﻡ are listed as synonyms. I’ve also consulted Dilworth B. Parkinson, “Using Arabic Synonyms”, but the word “teacher” doesn’t occur anywhere in this book.

Thanks all. I thought I had both examples written as (f). Sometimes I think writing the arabic script is on the same level as playing. three dimentional chess... Tried it and decided to take up paper-folding...origami. Discovered I was pretty good at that. My daughter even collects them for the children around here.Now when I hear there little voices crying out to their mothers: "Look here comes the man who makes paper swans ans eagles and even birds that flap their wings. Ask him if he will come over for Billy's birthday!"

At first I thought, 'where did I go wrong?' But as I began going to those birthday parties and all the children and, more than a few of their parents too, wanted swans, parrots and birds that flapped their wings, I realized I hadn't gone wrong. I really had..."Taken the Road Less Travelled by," but it lead me to huggs, kisses...AND DOUBLE HELPINGS OF CAKE!

And, when my wife and daughter acknowledge that I have really worked hard on my arabic...and it shows...I shall make the biggest choclate this family has ever seen. Life can be beautiful!

It seems my wife has gone to bed,. and it's time for me to go to the kitchen and free-up a few cookies.

Thanks again.

MC

You did have both spellings correctly down as (f), Mario. And as far as I can tell, the only thing wrong with مدرسة was the "ض" you used rather than "د".
I'm pretty sure you are soon going to be getting triple helpings of cake for your hard work on Arabic!
Good luck and regards to your family.

I learned "tasharafna" rather than "tafarasht" very early in learning Arabic and never thought about it again. Obviously I have always been saying "we are honoured". Or is tasharafna also used when only one person is speaking?

Maasbar,

Tasharrafnaa literally means (We are honoured). However, just like many other languages, you can use the plural pronoun as a form of respect. So using tasharrafnaa or tasharraft is right, and tasharrafnaa indicates more respect and honour.

Thank you for the kind words,Karen. I even showed them to my wife Lois,and she said: "I'm proud of you honey. Would you like the only cookie remaing from your last night's adventure into the kitchen?"

I wonder how she knew that? I'll bet my dog Arthur spilled some crumbs on the floor while enjoying two of the cookies. Maybe I should provide napkin service...

Thanks again.

MC

nice to meet another scott peck fan, mario...a world waiting to happen was my relax food in tunisia the last two weeks...

Hi Karen. In Morocco I've heard them using Mu3allim for a primary school teacher and ustad' for secondary school teacher

Thank you, Leila. :-)

الكلمتن for teacher become clearer if you look at the words and the verbs that spring from the same roots - مدرس و معلم have the same sort of consonant and vowel changes (morphing) from علم - learn and درس - study.

Oops - that should have been الكلمتين - the dual form of the word, الكلم.