menu Podcast

Maybe this is a question for Desmond, but on first glance شِبْه الجملة appears to be what we would say in English is a prepositional phrase. I'm sure there are rules which make it not just so, but each example starts with a preposition. No?

@ chazyouwin

I'll add some comments as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I haven't yet been able to listen to the podcast. When I click on the blue bar the word "Loading" appears, but there is no sound. This kind of problem arises from time to time (once or twice a month). I'll just have to wait till everything returns to normal.

great, this use of arabic terms to teach arabic works for me, sadly the pdf and audio are not working, but all in gods good time, no doubt.I think that as all over the world arabs are standing up to be counted, the use of arabic terms in teaching arabic will free the teachers to create methods not chained into european structures of grammar...arabic in arabic is a joy for me.

@ berry

A couple of hours ago I was unable to listen to the podcast, but everything's now returned to normal. Just have another try!

I found the podcast extremely interesting, and I'll add some detailed comments this afternoon.

Arabic grammarians often use the adjective ﻤﻓﻴﺪ (mufiid) when discussing the status of Arabic word sequences. In everyday Arabic “mufiid” means “useful” or “beneficial”, but in a grammatical context it means “complete” or “self-contained”. Since completeness is evidently a key concept in Arabic grammar, I was not surprised when Ehab used the adjective “complete” in this podcast. If he had been speaking in Arabic he would probably have said “mufiid”.

Incompleteness is clearly the main characteristic of the “shib al-jumla”, but after relistening to the podcast I’m still not sure what the other characteristics are. At the beginning of the podcast Mohamed tries to explain what a “shib al-jumla” is, but his explanations are not particularly enlightening. He says that a “shib al-jumla” is (1) a “sentence-like clause”, (2) “a relative clause” and / or (3) “a quasi-sentence”. The term “sentence-like clause” can denote a complement clause introduced by a word like “that”, but there are no complement clauses in the examples cited in this lesson. The term “relative clause” denotes the kind of subordinate clause we find in the opening sentence of the podcast entitled “Scout member”, but there isn’t a single relative clause in the examples. “Quasi-sentence” is merely a literal translation of “shib al-jumla” (see my comment on “Animal characteristics”). It vaguely suggests the idea of incompleteness, but tells us nothing else about the word sequences in question.

Now let’s look at the examples. As Charles says, all the examples are prepositional phrases, and the example cited by Ehab in his comment on “Animal characteristics” is also a prepositional phrase. Why are there no complement clauses or relative clauses? Could the term “shib al-jumla” denote a complement clause introduced by the word ﺃﻦ (an) or a relative clause introduced by a relative pronoun like ﺍﻠﺬﻲ (alladhy)? And what about noun phrases? Could a noun phrase like “al-hashd al-dakhm” (the huge crowd) be described as a “shib al-jumla”? After all, it is just as incomplete as the prepositional phrases in the examples discussed in the podcast. If you can tell me exactly what a “shib al-jumla” is I’ll suggest a precise definition and an acceptable English translation equivalent.

A further problem is posed by Ehab’s classification. He divides the examples into two groups, but I can’t see any difference between the groups. They are all prepositional phrases, and prepositional phrases are adverbial phrases. They can indicate time, place or manner. In the examples discussed in the lesson they all belong the locative category. (Incidentally, why has “haql” been rendered as “farm”? “Haql” is “field”, and “farm” is “mazra’a”.)

The use of the genitive case also calls for a few remarks. Ehab says that the nouns in the prepositional phrases in Group 1 are “majruur” (genitive). But surely the nouns Group 2 are also “majruur”? Isn’t the object of an Arabic preposition always in the genitive case?

In the example sentences the case endings have been dropped. This seems perfectly natural since case endings are normally dropped in everyday spoken Arabic, but the omission of the endings makes it impossible for the learner to distinguish between nouns which are in the genitive case and those which might be in the nominative (marfuu’) or the accusative case (mansuub).

Finally, something must be said about the term “jumla”. At the beginning of the podcast Mohamed says that “jumla” means “sentence”, and “jumla” does indeed mean “sentence” when it occurs in word combinations such as “jumla ismiyya” (nominal sentence). At the end of the podcast, however, “jumla” occurs in the word combination “jumla dharfiyya”, which means “adverbial phrase” (not “adverbial sentence”!). There is no such thing as an adverbial sentence.

Thanks Desmond. I find that different cultures can view grammatical concepts so differently interesting. The English convention, referencing the preposition at the beginning of the clause as the defining characteristic, is clearly not the only way to classify this type of clause. Charles

Here in Finland, the ArabicPodcasts are working again. شكراً كثيراً!

One point. I learned حقل to mean field. The word for farm in Arabic, that I learned was مزرعة

Another point is one I have to admit just based on reality, practicality when learning languages... and that is that I hate learning grammar. I just prefer to learn grammar by speaking and by example... although I have to admit, it's nice to know that the rules do exist somwhere and somehow can be discovered. It's just extremely boring to listen to lectures about grammar. In fact I quit one Arabic class here in Finland because the teacher spent the entire time in the class teaching obscure grammar... which doesn't make a lot of sense since the entire class is still missing a large percentage of the basic vocabulary. I think it is wiser to focus on vocabulary and hands-on speaking when learning foreign languages.

@ chazyouwin

Dear Charles,

I think three points need to be made here:

First, it is a well known fact that the segmentation of reality varies from language to language. In the technological domain interlinguistic divergences are comparatively rare, but in domains such as linguistics or philosophy there are often major discrepancies which can cause learning or translation problems.

Second, prepositional phrases are not clauses. The basic constituents of a prepositional phrase are a preposition and a noun phrase (e.g. “under the apple tree”). The noun phrase may be expanded by the addition of an adjective (e.g. “under the BIG apple tree”), and the adjective may be modified by an adverb (e.g. “in VERY exceptional cases”).

Third, a “shibh al-jumla” may be a prepositional phrase, but it may also be the second term of a genitive construct ('idaafa). I’ve just discovered a new Arabic video about a Coranic verse (95:8) which has been rendered as “Is not Allah the wisest of judges?” The translation is not entirely satisfactory, but that is besides the point here. There is no prepositional phrase in the “ayah” under discussion, but the gentleman who uploaded the video (an expert on classical Arabic) describes part of the 'idaafa as a “shibh al-jumla”.
I suspect that “shibh al-jumla” simply means “sentence constituent” or “syntagma”, but I’ll have to collect some more examples before I can form an opinion on this subject.

@ jenkky

Learning a language without grammar is like building a house without a foundation. There is no clear-cut boundary between grammar and lexis. One has to learn a set of grammatical rules for every word in the language, and it’s very hard to understand these rules if one is not equipped with a sophisticated conceptual armamentarium. A language student who knows next to nothing about grammar is like a surgeon who works in a dimly lit room and who tries to perform a difficult operation with a pair of blunt scissors. The surgeon will mutilate his patient, and the student will massacre the language he is trying to learn.

@Desmond. I agree with you that complete ignorance of grammar is rather bad... but do you think an Arabic class should be taught where 90% of the time is devoted to grammar? I think it should be less than 10% of the effort.

@ jenkky

The amount of time devoted to the teaching of grammar will depend on two factors: (1) the course level and (2) the level of proficiency already attained by the participants. In a beginners’ class a great deal of time will have to be devoted to grammar, especially if the participants have no previous knowledge of grammatical concepts and terminology. In an intermediate course more attention can be given to the development of comunication skills. In an advanced course, style and advanced text linguistics, not grammar, will be the main focus of attention, and students will be prepared for academic research work (including mathematics and physics), administrative tasks, or work in the diplomatic services.

Since vocabulary acquisition and the study of grammar often go hand in hand, it is impossible to indicate the percentage of time that will have to be devoted to grammar. In a beginners’ course it will probably have to be over 80 percent in order to ensure that the participants have a sound foundation to build on. Many students acquire extremely bad habits at an early stage in the learning process, and it is essential that remedial measures should be taken as soon as possible.

Most language learners have very naïve ideas about language. They imagine that a language is a collection of words that can be put together in a haphazard fashion. The first thing they have to be taught is that all language (including everyday conversational exchanges) is rule-governed. In beginners’ classes students should be obliged to construct sentences and short texts with the aid of prefabricated elements taken from oral or written texts produced by competent native speakers. Linguistic creativity should be strictly prohibited. There are rules for creative language use (including deliberate rule-breaking), and these rules will have to be taught in an advanced course aimed at highly gifted students whose level of proficiency is similar or even superior to that of the average native speaker.

Language learners who neglect grammar speak childish gibberish, and when they have spoken gibberish for several years remedial action is virtually impossible. Many of these students speak fluently, but everything they say is incorrect, and they make practically no progress even when they move to a foreign country. I know people who have been living abroad for over thirty years. Their listening comprehension is quite good, but they are unable to speak or write correctly. Sometimes they even forget their mother tongue and end up in a dismal no man’s land where they are constantly hampered by their inability to communicate effectively with other human beings.

@Desmond. Again, I agree with you that grammar is certainly important. But when you say:
"In a beginners’ course it will probably have to be over 80 percent in order to ensure that the participants have a sound foundation to build on. " I hope you are including the vocabulary as a hand in hand with grammar.

The way that pure grammar is often taught, at least here in Finland, is by lecturing ad nauseum without student interaction and without alternative methods of learning, makes it a virtual waste of time, especially if it avoids vocabulary.

My best (most balanced) experiences as a beginner of Arabic, were with Rosetta Stone, which divides the learning process into different categories. The categories they use (divided into roughly equal parts) there are 1) pronunciation, 2) vocabulary, 3) listening and reading, 4) grammar, 5) writing... but then in addition they have real instructors with which one can practice freely what you put as "construct sentences and short texts with the aid of prefabricated elements taken from oral or written texts produced by competent native speakers."... i.e. orally together with the teachers who encourage and correct us beginners.

The one thing they lack in Rosetta Stone is protracted listening with native speakers... for which I think ArabicPod is a pretty good alternative resource. They also don't do very much for vocabulary...

Call me näive, but I guess the reason why I think vocabulary is so important is that without it, you simply lack the basic building blocks of what the other components (including grammar) build upon. And in practical situations, it's the most important component. By which, I mean, for example, if you are reading some text, and if every other word is missing from your vocabulary, then, no matter how good your grammar is, you simply will not understand.

By the way, I think you made some rather interesting assumptions in what you wrote above... i.e. that beyond beginner and intermediate level, one needs to learn a language to the point where they should delve into mathematical linguistics. Don't you think it's acceptable for some people to just learn to be able to communicate, both listening and talking.

Personally, I've lived in Finland for 15 years, and I learned Finnish pretty fast, but I definitely chose not to go for the linguistic speaking level (I don't need it). That being said, I just recently took the "yleinen kieli kokeet", i.e. general language test for Finnish, and scored next to perfect on fill in the blank style grammar, listening comprehension, and pretty good on reading comprehension. By my own assessment, I think my English has not suffered at all.

Generally, don't you think that foreign languages improve one's native language?

@ jenkky

As students progress the amount of time that has to be devoted to the teaching of grammar will diminish. Grammar and vocabulary should be taught together. The slots in the 'idaafa construction, for instance, could be filled with thousands of nouns. Students could be asked to describe a series of coloured pictures. During this exercise they might construct sentences like “The door of the house is black”, “The roof of the house is red” or “The garden behind the house is beautiful”. Students should do most of the talking, and the teacher should only intervene to correct mistakes or to help students who have forgotten lexical items such as “tree” or “window”.

Reading and listening exercises shouldn’t be separated from grammar and vocabulary exercises. Learners won’t be able to understand audio texts if they don’t know enough grammar or vocabulary.

Grammar and vocabulary are equally important. If you know a lot of grammatical rules but very little vocabulary you won’t be able to interact with monolingual native speakers. On the other hand, a student who has a large vocabulary but practically no knowledge of grammar will produce word sequences which are so bizarre that there will be a complete breakdown in communication. I often have to teach German students who have learnt a lot of vocabulary but no grammar. When they try to communicate with me in French or English I can’t understand them. In such cases I have no choice but to speak to them in German. They tell me what they would like to say, and I teach them the word combinations and grammatical constructions they require. You can’t imagine how difficult it is to teach people who have learnt no grammar at school. Everything they say is wrong. Some students manage to make twenty to thirty mistakes in every sentence they utter.

You misunderstood what I said about mathematics. I don’t advocate mathematical linguistics in the classroom, though I sometimes have to use mathematics in my research work. What I meant is this. If the students are studying mathematics as their main subject they will have to be taught foreign mathematical terms so that they will be able to read research papers published in languages other than their own.

The relationship between L1 and L2 is often very complex. By L1 I mean the learner’s mother tongue, and by L2 I mean the foreign language the learner is trying to acquire. If the learner is highly intelligent and very language-conscious he / she may make simultaneous progress in both languages. In some cases, however, the language-learning process ends in disaster. I once knew an Irish girl who moved to Germany when she was about twenty. After spending two years in Germany she was unable to communicate in English, and her German was so bad that very few people could understand her. I also knew an Irish electrical engineer who married a German girl and moved to Nuremberg, where he worked in a monolingual environment. After three years he was able to communicate in broken German, but his English was so bad that even his mother couldn’t understand him.

@Desmond

شكرا يا دسمند، كلامك ممتعة جدا في هذا الموضوع

Glaub ich, dass wir ähnliche Gedanken zur diesen Thema jetzt haben.

Ich kenne auch Leute die mit mehrere Sprachen auch ihre Muttersprache verschlechtern (Finnen die in die USA umziehen). Sie machen sehr viele Fehlern mit Grammatik von L1 und L2 nach die Mischung beides Sprachen.

Selbe hab ich manchmal schwierigkeiten mit der Grammatik von Deutsch, aber nicht so schlechte Probleme dass Schwierigkeiten mit Verständnis in Alltagsspräche enstehen würden. Sondern gewöhnlich habe ich Probleme mit Geschlechter der Substantive (der, die, das)... und trotzdem, werden Deutschen normalerweise mich verstehen.

But with Arabic grammar, I admit that I have tons of work to go... In Rosetta Stone, they don't ignore grammar in Listing/Reading/Speaking exercises... rather they include grammar examples, but they are only really emphasized in the "grammar" exercises. They just don't talk about the grammar using linguistic terminology, rather they do the teaching almost purely by example. As opposed to the Finnish grammar lessons which are almost completely lacking in example.

Lieber jenkki,

es freut mich, dass Sie auch des Deutschen nicht unkundig sind. Haben Sie auch in Deutschland gelebt?

Deutsch habe ich erst mit fünfzehn Jahren in Nordirland gelernt. Zum Glück hatte ich eine gute Deutschlehrerin, die selber aus Deutschland stammte. Da ich schon damals auch zu vielen anderen deutschen Muttersprachlern lebhaften Kontakt hatte, habe ich rasche Fortschritte gemacht. Nach drei Jahren war ich im Deutschen sattelfest.

Mit „Rosetta Stone“ bin ich wenig vertraut. Ich habe nur ein paar Videos auf YouTube gesehen, die mir nicht sonderlich gefallen haben. Gute Beispielsätze sind zweifellos nützlich, aber viele Fremdsprachenlerner können leider mit Beispielsätzen nichts anfangen, weil sie sprachliche Strukturen nicht richtig analysieren können. Bevor man anfängt, eine Fremdsprache zu lernen, muss man sich ein relativ differenziertes linguistisches Begriffsinstrumentarium aneignen.

Die arabische Sprache übt eine anhaltende Faszination auf mich aus. Bisher habe ich recht gute Fortschritte gemacht, obwohl ich ganz allein arbeite und nie einen Arabischkurs absolviert habe. In meiner unmittelbaren Umgebung habe ich leider keine Bekannten, die Arabisch sprechen oder sich für Arabisch interessieren.

Herzliche Grüße
Desmond

This is such a complex area as language involves subtle aspects of cognition which leads, on the one hand to differences in the acquisition of language, dependent on situation, temperament and interest, and, on the other, to significant intrinsic difficulties in the use of terminology, particularly where the languages are far removed from each other.

The latter aspect can lead to an increasingly complex number of confusing (and confused) terms that might require generations of experience, discussion and refinement to arrive at a genuinely workable, mutually intelligible system (absolutely perfect, definitive descriptions are never attainable in the area of cognition!). This is still very much a work in progress regarding English and Arabic.

Although I'm personally interested in exploring aspects of cognition, including linguistics, this is an area (however worthy) of peripheral interest to most people so it is the former pragmatic aspect that is most important.

Due to practical constraints, some generalisation is necessary and I think it's fair to say that some grammar is necessary even at a beginner level. However, if it is too rigorously technical, it can seriously impede progress. For example, as a beginner, I was aware of case endings but the insistence of their use by a tutor in Luxor (not a professional, just an English teacher in a local school), a few years back, quickly destroyed what confidence I had in the basics and my progress regressed. On the other hand, I'm someone who is very inquisitive, so inclined to ask questions and I progress as I recognise and get a feeling for grammatical patterns.

I heartily congratulate the ArabicPod team for offering a near optimal compromise of accessibility, simplicity and humour in the broadcasts whilst providing the opportunity to explore further in the forum.

Compromise means that it will not suit everyone so a few may go elsewhere whilst the rest of us have the good fortune to use the forum for what is of interest and useful to ourselves, whether it is a simple query or more complex exploration. Again, we're exceedingly fortunate that our tutors offer this range of possibility. Once again, thank you very much guys, & gal!